S3 E3: Earth Science, Oceanography and Astrobiology with Jodi Young and Fabian Klenner

In this episode of FieldSound, we meet two researchers who work in vastly different systems, but whose paths cross in the interdisciplinary field of astrobiology.

Jodi Young is an assistant professor and biological oceanographer at the University of Washington who studies tiny, yet mighty, marine microalgae that play a crucial role in our planet's ecosystems. She’s fascinated by how these algae manage to survive and even flourish in the harsh, icy and briny waters of the polar regions — still somewhat of a mystery.

As a member of the UW Future of Ice Initiative and Associate Director of the UW Astrobiology Program, Jodi Young’s research bridges the gap between Earth’s most remote locations and the potential for life in other worlds. Scientists like Young studying the extreme environments here on Earth can help the groundwork for understanding distant moons and exoplanets, like Ganymede, Mars and Enceladus.

Fabian Klenner is a postdoctoral researcher at UW who focuses on geochemistry, planetary and space sciences and astrobiology. Klenner's work is part of NASA’s Europa Clipper mission, launched on October 14, 2024, with potential discoveries that could change our understanding of life in the universe, and the future of science.

Klenner’s path led him from the quiet countryside to the cutting edge of planetary science, astrobiology and the search for life beyond Earth. Klenner combines laboratory experiments with advanced modeling to understand the chemical and physical processes happening in the oceans of icy moons like Enceladus and Europa, as well as groundbreaking experiments to detect potential biosignatures — clues that life might exist — on distant moons.

Astrobiology is the multidisciplinary science of exploring life beyond our planet — a field that bridges biology, chemistry, astronomy, geology and more to understand the potential that exists in our universe. 

Related links:

https://www.washington.edu/news/2024/03/22/signs-of-life-detectable-in-single-ice-grain-emitted-from-extraterrestrial-moons/

https://www.washington.edu/news/2023/06/14/phosphate-a-key-building-block-of-life-found-on-saturns-moon-enceladus/

https://www.washington.edu/news/2023/09/15/polar-experiments-reveal-seasonal-cycle-in-antarctic-sea-ice-algae/

https://environment.uw.edu/podcast

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:15:22
Sarah Smith
One from the University of Washington College of the Environment. This is FieldSound.

00:00:21:15 - 00:00:28:12
Sarah Smith
Imagine standing in a frozen wilderness surrounded by a vast expanse of white

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Sarah Smith
beneath your feet. A hidden world thrives. One that holds the keys to understanding life in the most extreme environments on Earth

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Sarah Smith
and perhaps beyond.

00:00:41:11 - 00:00:47:00
Sarah Smith
Jodi Young is a biological oceanographer at the University of Washington School of Oceanography.

00:00:47:00 - 00:00:55:15
Sarah Smith
Phe, who studies tiny yet mighty Marine microalgae that play a crucial role in our planet's ecosystems.

00:00:56:05 - 00:00:57:08
Sarah Smith
She's fascinated

00:00:57:08 - 00:00:58:12
Sarah Smith
by how these algae

00:00:58:12 - 00:01:05:17
Sarah Smith
managed to survive and even flourish in the harsh, icy and briny waters of the polar regions

00:01:06:05 - 00:01:35:08
Jodi Young
I am fascinated and really interested in trying to understand how life can exist in these frozen, subzero, really cold environments. And I do this by looking at this process called auto tricky and an auto tricky is a process by which life can make their own food. And the best example of this is plants. If you look outside, you see plants.

00:01:35:08 - 00:02:04:01
Jodi Young
Plants do photosynthesis and they take air and turn it into life, which is just amazing, right? If I lose my mind and I make food out of air, and then because of them, they form the space of the food web that everything else eats them. Right. So that's what all ideas. But when you start looking at these sort of extreme environments on Earth and lots of places and the marine environment, it's not plants that are doing auditory B that are making the food.

00:02:04:01 - 00:02:30:08
Jodi Young
It's other organisms. And so in these really cool environments like the Antarctic sea ice or the Arctic sea ice, you have all these algae that grow within the sea ice and they're doing photosynthesis, but at like freezing cold temperatures. And then even more extreme than that, you have these microbes, these bacteria that can live in these dark, anoxic, salty brines encased within permafrost.

00:02:30:08 - 00:02:47:12
Jodi Young
And they are also mixing carbon and making their life the rest of the ecosystem relies on them. And so I just find this fascinating about what are the limits of this on earth? And then how could we use this to maybe even go beyond that and understand how life could exist?

00:02:52:02 - 00:02:56:06
Jodi Young
Photosynthesis drives our ecosystems. It drives the carbon cycle.

00:02:56:06 - 00:03:10:05
Jodi Young
So understanding how these organisms is the first step of life controls or impacts carbon cycling, the flux of CO2 in our atmosphere and understanding how it can support ecosystems is hugely important.

00:03:11:13 - 00:03:27:05
Jodi Young
I grew up in Australia. I grew up on the ocean. I'm the first one of my family ever to go to university and I didn't really. Academia was not even up there as a possible job opportunity.

00:03:27:06 - 00:03:49:05
Jodi Young
I just knew I love the oceans. I did my undergraduate degree in Australia and marine science and biotech, but then I ended up working as a research tech in agricultural research. And then I wanted to go backpacking around the world and I got a research tech position at London Medical Research. And then I realized I didn't like being told what to do.

00:03:49:07 - 00:04:18:04
Jodi Young
So I went and got my PhD and that was still in England at Oxford. I was very lucky and I got a scholarship to do that and I wanted to get back to my environmental marine science roots. And because I was seeded in a geology department, I started really understanding this amazing connection between marine life and the planets and sort of geochemical cycles and evolutionary timescales, like really big picture stuff.

00:04:18:10 - 00:04:40:10
Jodi Young
I just I just got so excited about it. And then again, I finished my Ph.D. and I was determined that I was going to go out and get a real job in money. And I didn't want to be an academic, but I needed a job. And I got a postdoctoral position in the US at Princeton University. Just so happened they had the grant funded to do fieldwork in Antarctica.

00:04:40:10 - 00:04:42:11
Jodi Young
So I got to go to Antarctica for the first time,

00:04:43:00 - 00:05:02:18
Jodi Young
going there and seeing it's the most one of the most amazing places on the planet. And that just got me hooked. After that, I just took a deep dive into the frozen environments and it's just there is so little known and it's so important and it's changing so rapidly that it's just such an exciting area to do research.

00:05:05:10 - 00:05:10:14
Sarah Smith
Despite her love for polar fieldwork. Jodi admits she hates the cold,

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Sarah Smith
but that doesn't stop her from venturing into these extreme environments. Time and again,

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Sarah Smith
driven by a passion to unlock the secrets hidden beneath the ice.

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Jodi Young
I did not see snow until I was 24 years old.

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Jodi Young
and then I got to Antarctica. And it's so it's just so beautiful and stunning,

00:05:28:19 - 00:05:34:22
Jodi Young
right? There's very little like humans. We have research bases down there. There are tourists, ships that go down.

00:05:34:22 - 00:05:54:19
Jodi Young
But the vast majority, it's just this wild landscape. And the Western Antarctic Peninsula, where I've done a lot of research, is just teeming, teeming with marine lives. You know, we have penguins like jumping into our boats and looking for are we going to get out of the lab door one day because there was an elephant seal asleep outside the door.

00:05:54:19 - 00:06:03:11
Jodi Young
We couldn't get it out. And it was just the most magical place to do this research. And it's I love doing fieldwork because you're

00:06:03:11 - 00:06:04:13
Jodi Young
going as a team

00:06:04:15 - 00:06:18:20
Jodi Young
to tackle one particular topic or research one question, and I just love how everybody comes together and works together and you just have a amazing sense of community. So it's really fun and everyone's excited about the same thing.

00:06:18:22 - 00:06:23:17
Jodi Young
It's who we are. You dive into it. So I've just had such good experiences.

00:06:24:10 - 00:06:32:03
Jodi Young
So one of the areas I'm really interested in is the algae that grow in sea ice in the Arctic, in the Antarctic.

00:06:32:11 - 00:06:47:21
Jodi Young
These guys do auditory feet. They are the primary producers, they do photosynthesis and they make the food and the base of the food and in the sea ice are incredibly important because they stop growing in the sea ice before any of the phytoplankton can grow.

00:06:47:23 - 00:07:09:01
Jodi Young
We can't see them from space because the sea ice that covers the top of the ocean and the satellites can't penetrate that. So we can't see them. They're basically hidden, but they're a critical food source for these polar ecosystems. So krill, juvenile krill rely on sea ice algae as part of that lifecycle. And everything eats krill in the Antarctic, right.

00:07:09:01 - 00:07:28:22
Jodi Young
You know, penguins and whales and all the seals. Right. They all need the krill. So if you lose the sea ice algae, you really impact the viability of the krill, which then has huge implications for the rest of the ecosystem. And then when the sea ice melts, all that sea ice algae, they sink, a lot of it can sink to the sea floor.

00:07:28:22 - 00:07:39:09
Jodi Young
And so they can be a big important export of carbon as well. They really have to study that because as I said, we can't see them from satellites. It's just polar regions are really difficult place to work.

00:07:39:09 - 00:07:57:10
Jodi Young
It's so cool because these environments are so dynamic and you go from three months of darkness into to like prey 24 hours of sunlight. And when the sea ice is frozen, they see us algae grow within these really salty brine.

00:07:57:10 - 00:08:19:08
Jodi Young
So when seawater freezes, the freshwater produces and it pushes out the salts and some of those salts get trapped within these little brine channels within the ice. And that's where the algae lives. So they have to deal with these very cold, very salty conditions. And so they have all these adaptations to protect themselves. They don't form ice crystals that exploit cells wide open.

00:08:19:10 - 00:08:22:14
Jodi Young
And so they don't defecate because of all the salt around.

00:08:22:14 - 00:08:37:06
Jodi Young
And so it's really interesting and a lot of that involves them making a lot of fatty acid. They have a lot of proteins that help protect them against these cold temperatures and salts, which makes them super nutritious. But understanding how that impacts cycling is really important.

00:08:40:04 - 00:08:43:14
Jodi Young
I've mentioned photosynthesis a lot, ten times 

00:08:43:14 - 00:08:46:06
Jodi Young
Photosynthesis is only one way they can make it work.

00:08:46:10 - 00:09:09:05
Jodi Young
There are other pathways out there in front of synthesis that use light to fix carbon dioxide, and the enzyme that fixes carbon dioxide is this enzyme called rubisco. There are other microbes out there, some bacteria that also fix carbon using rubisco, but they don't use light to do it. They use it. They get their energy from other sources, but they're still doing a lot of tricky.

00:09:09:06 - 00:09:34:18
Jodi Young
They're still using rubisco, they're still fixing CO2. They're the base of the food. Well, they're just not doing specific plants, and they're the ones that these pathways are the ones that exist in these really extreme, extreme, extreme environments. So we work one of the field sites we work on are called CapEx, which of these ancient like 40,000 year old brines trapped within the permafrost up in the Arctic.

00:09:34:20 - 00:09:45:15
Jodi Young
And these BRINES act like it's minus six degrees Celsius. It's really salty, it's dark, it's anoxic, and it's teeming with bacterial life.

00:09:45:15 - 00:10:05:01
Jodi Young
And so that's really interesting understanding how these enzymes work under these extreme environments, like really extreme environments, because that then has applications. I'm trying to think about what are the limits of life on earth and what could be the limits of life if we wanted to go look for life elsewhere, like a mars or Solidus.

00:10:05:15 - 00:10:07:18
Jodi Young
How can we do that? Because

00:10:07:18 - 00:10:17:08
Jodi Young
not easy doing research at the poles, but it's even harder to do research in space. Having some more knowledge of what we could go after, what we could look at would be really useful.

00:10:19:15 - 00:10:24:03
Sarah Smith
Astrobiology is the science of exploring life beyond our planet.

00:10:24:05 - 00:10:25:23
Sarah Smith
It's multidisciplinary.

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Sarah Smith
A field that bridges biology, chemistry, astronomy

00:10:30:05 - 00:10:34:22
Sarah Smith
and geology to understand the potential that exists in our universe.

00:10:34:22 - 00:10:36:19
Sarah Smith
and scientists like Jodi

00:10:36:19 - 00:10:49:00
Sarah Smith
studying. Extreme environments here on Earth are helping to lay the groundwork for understanding distant moons and exoplanets like Ganymede, Mars and Enceladus.

00:10:49:11 - 00:11:13:09
Jodi Young
You have astrobiology program. It's one of the few places in the world you can study astrobiology. And I am right now just temporarily. I'm the interim director of the astrobiology program, which has been a lot of fun. And I will freely admit that when I got here, I didn't know much about astrobiology. And I was very skeptical about how do people study this?

00:11:13:09 - 00:11:26:13
Jodi Young
Like, what is it? Just a bunch of people sitting around speculating like, how do you how do you do it? And then I realized actually what this program is, it's just bringing together just the most amazing experts in their own fields

00:11:26:13 - 00:11:32:03
Jodi Young
that are doing research that has applications, too. Like if you were to look for life elsewhere, how would we do it?

00:11:32:03 - 00:11:52:02
Jodi Young
And so you have these amazing astronomers and geochemical modelers of earth system scientists and paleo people and people like me who study life at extremes. And we get to come together and we try and combine our knowledge because there are missions going out to Mars and to all of this.

00:11:52:02 - 00:12:12:07
Jodi Young
It's very different to what we have on Earth, Right? The ice thickness, kilometers thick versus meters thick, which we study. So it's very, very different. I'm not saying it's an easy task to look at, but it's really wonderful when you bring in people like me, you can understand, well, what is the coldest that photosynthesis or a trick.

00:12:12:07 - 00:12:29:08
Jodi Young
It can happen on this planet and match that with someone who can model how the geology of the moon and how it's moving. And then people do understand the physics and the chemistry of the ice. And when you get them together and work together, you can have some targeted question.

00:12:31:06 - 00:12:37:12
Sarah Smith
Astrobiologists seek answers to some of humanity's biggest questions How did life begin?

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Sarah Smith
Does it exist elsewhere?

00:12:40:12 - 00:12:43:18
Sarah Smith
And what does that mean for us here on Earth?

00:12:47:02 - 00:12:56:17
Sarah Smith
growing up in a small village near Heidelberg, Germany, Fabian Klenner looked to the night sky and pondered what mysteries that might hold.

00:12:58:16 - 00:13:18:22
Fabian Klenner
it started already when I was a child. When? At night. And then I was watching the stars and I was really wondering if we are alone or if we are not alone. And it is really hard to imagine. Still, if you see these thousands of bright stars in the night sky and you want to imagine that we are alone.

00:13:18:22 - 00:13:20:03
Fabian Klenner
I am not sure about that.

00:13:20:23 - 00:13:27:18
Fabian Klenner
And I was wondering, even as a child, how cool it would be to really follow up this question and do something about it.

00:13:27:18 - 00:13:40:06
Fabian Klenner
And then after after high school, I studied Earth Sciences originally, and I really love that. And then when my bachelor studies came to an end, I had to choose a

00:13:40:06 - 00:13:42:08
Fabian Klenner
professor for bachelor thesis.

00:13:42:10 - 00:14:08:18
Fabian Klenner
And I was then very interested to find someone who is who is doing something with extraterrestrial materials, whatever. It's asteroids, meteorites, planetary science, whatever. And that's how I got in contact with planetary science. And I was really happy about that. And then I got at some point involved in NASA's Cassini mission, and I did a lot of lab experiments that help analyzed data from space.

00:14:08:18 - 00:14:16:08
Fabian Klenner
I could I could analyzed data from space by myself as a just after my bachelor studies. And it was so cool. And

00:14:16:13 - 00:14:20:13
Fabian Klenner
my Masters thesis iteself was about planetary science, astrobiology

00:14:20:13 - 00:14:25:06
Fabian Klenner
then I did my Ph.D. in the same research group and that's how I got here.

00:14:28:14 - 00:14:33:22
Sarah Smith
Klenner's path led him from the quiet countryside to the cutting edge

00:14:33:22 - 00:14:39:20
Sarah Smith
of planetary science, astrobiology and the search for life beyond earth,

00:14:40:12 - 00:14:51:04
Fabian Klenner
remember that time very often that I mentioned earlier when I was a child. And it was I'm curious about searching for life. And now I'm so grateful that I really can do that.

00:14:51:22 - 00:14:56:17
Fabian Klenner
I'm a postdoctoral scholar at the University of Washington in Earth and Space Sciences.

00:14:57:02 - 00:14:58:16
Fabian Klenner
So I really love my job

00:14:58:16 - 00:14:59:14
Fabian Klenner
I work with

00:14:59:14 - 00:15:08:23
Fabian Klenner
geoscientists with physicists, chemists, biologists, mathematicians, even philosophers. So when you talk about the origin of life, it can become very philosophical.

00:15:10:03 - 00:15:12:22
Sarah Smith
as a postdoctoral researcher at U Dub,

00:15:12:22 - 00:15:17:03
Sarah Smith
Klenner combines laboratory experiments with advanced modeling

00:15:17:03 - 00:15:19:23
Sarah Smith
to understand the chemical and physical processes

00:15:19:23 - 00:15:24:14
Sarah Smith
happening in the oceans of icy moons like Enceladus and Europa,

00:15:24:14 - 00:15:31:11
Sarah Smith
well as detect potential biosignatures clues that life might exist on distant moons

00:15:32:13 - 00:15:40:12
Fabian Klenner
a study about the search and a distribution and the fate of life in the universe, including our planet Earth.

00:15:40:21 - 00:16:01:13
Fabian Klenner
So I remember actually the first time I saw that the lab data and I really saw out there is something in the data that that cannot be just from the water, it must be from the bacteria. So I didn't really know what it is, but I knew there is something. And then you really have a very deep look into the data and you take your time and you try to analyze it.

00:16:01:13 - 00:16:11:19
Fabian Klenner
You try to make sense of it because you know it. Bacterial cell compounds that you may expect from bacterial cell, but you you have no idea if it really shows up in the data about this worked.

00:16:14:02 - 00:16:18:04
Fabian Klenner
instrument I'm working with is called Surface Dust Analyzer

00:16:18:04 - 00:16:20:09
Fabian Klenner
that technique is mass spectrometry.

00:16:20:16 - 00:16:26:08
Fabian Klenner
and it works in a way that you have to check it. Ice grains, singles, grains ejected into space

00:16:26:17 - 00:16:38:11
Fabian Klenner
to instrument. A spacecraft is flying by and the instrument hits these ice grains. And just due to the kinetic energy of the impact, you break molecules apart which are in the ice.

00:16:38:11 - 00:16:48:19
Fabian Klenner
grains means water, of course, because it's a water ice grain. Plus maybe a material cell if it's there or not. And then we we we simulated such a case in the lab, and we found

00:16:48:19 - 00:16:55:09
Fabian Klenner
very tiny fragments of the bacterial cells. So fragments of those house membranes from the interior of the cells.

00:16:55:11 - 00:17:20:20
Fabian Klenner
These are fatty assets. And also we found amino acids and metabolites. So metabolites are very tiny compounds that are that participate in the metabolism of bacterial cells. So we can find very tiniest fragments of a bacterial cell basically in our data. And then with the abundances of these molecules, how much of a fatty acid is there?

00:17:20:20 - 00:17:42:04
Fabian Klenner
How much of a particular amino acid is there? Then you can tell, Wow, that really comes from life. So you can differentiate if it comes from life or if it was abiotic reproduced without the involvement of life, because you can also from amino acids without life, you can form fatty acids without life, but you can really tell with the data that that we got in the lab.

00:17:42:04 - 00:17:44:13
Fabian Klenner
This must be from a bacterial cell.

00:17:48:01 - 00:17:54:11
Fabian Klenner
we know that there are already instruments being built that will be sent to space and they are highly capable.

00:17:55:14 - 00:17:56:05
Fabian Klenner
and there was one

00:17:56:05 - 00:18:00:06
Fabian Klenner
such instrument that found very interesting things about one of Saturn's moons.

00:18:01:06 - 00:18:05:11
Sarah Smith
NASA's Cassini spacecraft discovered the guys are like jets

00:18:05:11 - 00:18:08:09
Sarah Smith
spew water vapor and ice particles

00:18:08:09 - 00:18:10:02
Sarah Smith
from an underground ocean

00:18:10:02 - 00:18:12:18
Sarah Smith
beneath the icy crust of Enceladus,

00:18:13:09 - 00:18:16:16
Sarah Smith
with an ocean hidden beneath thick layers of ice.

00:18:16:18 - 00:18:19:06
Sarah Smith
Enceladus is one of the solar system's

00:18:19:06 - 00:18:22:06
Sarah Smith
most scientifically interesting destinations

00:18:22:06 - 00:18:26:18
Sarah Smith
and a promising leader in the search for where life could exist beyond Earth.

00:18:26:22 - 00:18:35:07
Fabian Klenner
most of the ice grains are detected by antenna. Those are in a range between one and five micrometers in diameter. So very, very tiny grains.

00:18:35:07 - 00:18:48:18
Fabian Klenner
And if there is a mechanism to bring bacterial cells and screens, which is somehow plausible because the grains form from liquid water, from a liquid water ocean, and wherever is liquid water on earth, there is life.

00:18:48:18 - 00:19:05:14
Fabian Klenner
So we have very curious to find out if that's life on on that. Tell us on that. And then these accidents get ejected into space and instruments can analyze them. And we tested this in our laboratory with bacterial cells, and this works pretty well. So we could, in theory, find them.

00:19:07:05 - 00:19:11:04
Fabian Klenner
NASA has scheduled a mission to launch in October this year.

00:19:11:04 - 00:19:29:20
Fabian Klenner
That's Europa Clipper that will investigate a moon of Jupiter with a very similar instrument, but with higher capabilities. So according to our experiments, this instrument would be capable of finding a bacterial cell if it is incorporated in nice grain and ejected into space.

00:19:30:12 - 00:19:46:21
Fabian Klenner
I would say the main driving question for my research is not only if there is life beyond Earth, but also how we can detect it. And that's why we need spacecraft to investigate these moons and to collect data returning to Earth. And then we have to analyze it.

00:19:46:21 - 00:19:51:04
Fabian Klenner
And one of these missions is Europa Clipper and Europa Clipper has the right instruments.

00:19:51:04 - 00:20:00:09
Fabian Klenner
So that's what we've proven with our study recently, and I'm so curious to see the data that will be returned by Europa Clipper,

00:20:01:19 - 00:20:09:16
Sarah Smith
the potential discoveries of the Europa mission could change our understanding of life in the universe and the future of science.

00:20:14:06 - 00:20:27:22
Fabian Klenner
if it really turns out that this instrument to a surface dust analyzer will find these compounds that we found in the lab, and then you have really you have to ask the question, where should it come from if it's not life?

00:20:28:00 - 00:20:55:06
Fabian Klenner
And this would be incredibly exciting. But even if, if, if we don't find any signs of life, I mean, the mission goal is not to find life or to search for life. The mission goal is to to constrain. If Europa has two conditions to support life, which is the difference. And this this mission is incredibly exciting. And and I'm also working on other potential missions that may go, for example, to Enceladus.

00:20:55:06 - 00:21:18:12
Fabian Klenner
So Enceladus is a top target for ESA, for the European Space Agency, when they will pick the next big mission and intended us to. Second has the second highest priority for NASA when they would pick their next mission. So I'm optimistic that in my lifetime, I mean, I'm I'm still a young scientist, but I hope and I'm optimistic that in my lifetime we will have another mission going to and senators.

00:21:20:04 - 00:21:41:12
Fabian Klenner
let's imagine we really find life in the solar system. And so let's say Europa, then this life would have most, most likely evolved completely independent of life on earth. So it's basically two origins of life in the same neighborhood. And this would change our our mindset, our way of thinking about the distribution of life.

00:21:41:14 - 00:21:52:07
Fabian Klenner
Because if you have two origins of life in the same neighborhood and then you see this thousands of stars in the night sky, and maybe it has plenty of life out there, we just haven't found it yet.

00:22:00:21 - 00:22:03:01
Sarah Smith
A big thank you to our guests today,

00:22:03:19 - 00:22:06:07
Sarah Smith
Jodi Young and Fabian Klenner.

00:22:07:01 - 00:22:14:20
Sarah Smith
if you'd like to learn more about their work, you can visit our website at Environment.UW.edu

00:22:14:20 - 00:22:16:16
Sarah Smith
from all of us at FieldSound

00:22:16:18 - 00:22:18:02
Sarah Smith
Thanks for listening.

00:22:18:02 - 00:22:19:15
Sarah Smith
See you next time.